The full transcript

Adam, what's your point?

The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever signed. Right here. You are a one of one. My son's right there.

I don't think I've ever said this before.

We have a special guest in the house, one of the biggest MAGA spokesperson out there in the world. Hardcore, hardcore MAGA. Now a capitalist, he runs a very successful business now after leaving MSNBC. He's crushing it. But it's great to have you on the podcast today, Mehdi Hasan.

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Yes, of course. Of course. And obviously, I've been watching you for many years. And we reached out. We said, let's invite him on board. And then Rob said, Mehdi said yes. I said, this is great.

It took a long time to get to yes, but I'm here.

Yes. So what took, what took such, such a long time?

I don't know.

What were you worried about? Were you afraid of seeing a capitalist?

I don't know.

Is it like, this guy's gonna be—

I don't know. I've seen your show. It's an entertaining show. I know it's a very different format today. Uh, I don't know. I'm genuinely, I'm intrigued as to what we're going to talk about today.

And I'm genuinely interested in learning your story.

Okay.

So tell me your story, your background.

My background is, if the accent didn't give it away, I'm a British-American. I'm a dual national. British American citizen, citizen of both great countries. Born and raised in the UK. My parents immigrants from India, moved to the UK in the '60s.

What part of India?

South India, Hyderabad.

Okay.

Best biryani in the world.

Best beer? Biryani. Biryani? I said best beer.

I'm not going to be the guy who gives you beer recommendations.

Okay, got it. So I went to Mumbai. I went to Mumbai 8 years ago and I spoke at IIT Institute.

Oh yes, big.

Incredible experience. Incredible place.

But Hyderabad has better food. So I have to say that as a Hyderabad. So my parents moved in the sixties and seventies to the UK. I was born in seventy nine. I think we're similar in age, and I moved to the US twelve years ago come February. So it's been over a decade I've been here. Became a citizen in twenty twenty. Been a journalist all my life.

What do you prefer? UK or?

And I know listen. Oh, this is a controversial question.

Just ask me. I don't want to upset mom, so you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

They both have their. They both have their brilliance. I go back to the UK all the time. I'm heading out there next week. I get to go for work and. pleasure, and I love going back to the UK. But the US, I gotta say, the US has given me opportunities and open doors that even the UK I don't think could have done.

Really?

And I think you hear that from a lot of Black and brown folks from the UK, because I'm someone who's criticized racism, obviously, sure, in, in the UK and in the US. But what's interesting is you talk to people in the media space, entertainment space, you look at someone like Idris Elba, you look at someone like my good friend, my old school friend Riz Ahmed, Oscar-winning, Emmy-winning actor. They've all talked about how when they came to the US, they got more opportunities than they got in the UK.

Why do you think that is? Is it just capitalism? Is it just business? Is it incentives?

I think there's also— I mean, the country is a bigger country. I think we can sometimes forget when we live here how big— how this is a continent of a country. So just geographically, space-wise, there's more places to just do things. The UK is very heavily concentrated around London, right? The entire country, to the great consternation of people in Manchester, Birmingham, the entire economy is centered around one city. Politics is centered around Westminster in London. Um, and I think there's also— in England, we don't have the legacy of, you know, plantation slavery and the Black struggle for civil rights in the US, but we do have a different kind of legacy of empire and that form of, uh, um, you know, history to overcome. I don't know the right word I'm looking for, like staid, stodgy. It's just a kind of an old way of doing things. You hit a different kind of glass ceiling in the UK. I'm not giving a pass to All kinds of racism and bigotry there still is in the US that we're still fighting with. But there is something about being a person of color and just having a little bit more ambition in the US. It's going to get me in huge trouble with the people. I'm screwed now when I go back to the UK next week, if this airs before then.

Both of us are brown and winning in America, which is a good thing.

Yes, from different, different parts of the political divide, I think.

That's right. By the way, in high school, if I was in high school with you, you're 15, 16, who's Mehdi Hasan? What were you doing?

I was the same person I am now. I was a debater. I was an arguer. I was the guy with the big mouth. I was the guy getting thrown into the hallway. I was the guy going to detention because I answered back. I talked a lot.

Teachers, students, professors, didn't matter.

I found report cards recently that my children and I sat and went through. It was really embarrassing. My daughter sat with me. We went through the report cards. Every single one is, he doesn't stop talking. He answers back. He thinks he knows everything. He won't stop asking questions.

Is that a family thing or is that a you thing?

It's a family thing for sure.

Okay, got it.

Yeah, I wrote about it in the book. My father passed away last year. Sorry, he was a— thank you. He was a, he was a very disputatious individual. Loved to debate, loved to argue, super provocative even in the Muslim community. The story I tell, remember in the late '80s, you'll remember this because you're of Iranian heritage, Ayatollah Khomeini gives the fatwa against Salman Rushdie. Yes, Satanic Verses. Yes, uh, Muslims in the UK are furious, especially in the UK.

More than, by the way, he helped them sell millions of copies. Indeed, indeed.

So listen to this. So in Bradford, big Muslim city, uh, in the UK, they even burned copies of The Satanic Verses. Got it, you know, huge issue we could talk about another time. But anyways, huge issue in the UK. My dad goes out and buys a copy of The Satanic Verses, reads—

As a Muslim?

As a Muslim, and puts it on our dining room bookshelf right next to the table. So every time our friends, family come over for dinner, it's there. And people are saying to my dad, what the hell are you doing here? Why do you have Satanic Verses on your bookshelf? My dad said, have you read it? And he said, no. They said, well, how do you know what to object to about it? And I think that attitude of his, which was quite provocative at the time, and even till his death he was known as a provocative individual, I think I borrowed a lot of that. The ability to be able to ask questions, be offensive if need be, be provocative if need be, don't give a shit what people think. If you need to ask the right questions, you need to say what you want to say. That very much comes from my father, from my household growing up. My sister is also a journalist. We're very similar in that sense.

Was he a journalist or no?

No, he wasn't, but he was very political. He was a very traditional— he was a civil engineer. My mother's a doctor. doctor. They're very classic Asian Desi Indian couple. But he was very political from the moment he moved to the UK. He loved British politics till he passed away. He was asking me questions about Trump. What's he doing? Is he going to survive? Like, in 2024, all he did— all he asked me was like, why are they running Biden? Why are they running Biden?

Um, at what age?

This was at 80. He passed away last year at 87, so this would have been at 86.

Good for him.

So he was super sharp to the very end. No, unfortunately he wasn't sharp at the end. But even when he wasn't sharp at the end, He was still very political. Just wanted to talk about politics whenever I called him.

Never had a desire to run and do anything? Just an opinion?

No, just loved it. There's a certain generation of Indian immigrant men who have a lot of opinions.

Well, the opinion part I agree.

But he also read broadly, read widely. He could quote Shakespeare.

Who influenced him? What influences politics?

His uncle growing up. My dad grew up as an orphan. His father died when he was 2. He was raised by his uncle mainly, who was a kind of polymath. And I think he absorbed a lot of that. So my father was someone who could quote Shakespeare, but he could also quote Allama Iqbal, the famous Urdu poet. Like, he could switch between different cultures, different intellectual references. So it put a lot of pressure on me and my sister.

But was, was he a devout liberal himself? Like, would you consider him a— would he today be a progressive himself, or no?

I think he very much would see himself as a liberal.

Okay.

My parents are very different. I think my mother is more conservative, more practicing. My father was more intellectually engaged with the religion.

Like a literal conservative? Like conservative conservative?

What's your definition?

Like she's pro-Trump?

No.

Okay, so what is sensible?

She's sensible.

She's sensible.

I meant conservative, like socially conservative, you know, Islam, you know, making sure that when we were kids, she was the one who made sure we prayed and we fasted, we read Quran and all of that stuff. My father was the person who made sure that we were asking questions about the world. And yes, the culture, very much the language, the culture, all of that stuff. Got it.

So did they know you're going to get into journalism?

No.

How did that happen? Like, when was it, Dad, this is what I'm gonna do?

I went to university in the late '90s. I went to Oxford. I did politics, philosophy, economics, which is this degree that Economics.

Yeah, I saw— PPE.

It's a famous degree in the UK that politicians love to do. Prime ministers love to do. David Cameron did PPE. Like, it's called the degree of prime ministers. Like, it's famous. I did that degree and I didn't like the economics. I struggled with the philosophy, even though I enjoyed it. And I loved the politics. I didn't know what to do. Most of my friends left university and went into finance, investment banking, management consulting. I knew I didn't want to do that. So that left me with a kind of, what do I do now? And I kind of fell into journalism. People ask me at events now, young people, like, what's your story? How do I become a journalist? I wish I had like a Marvel origin story. I don't. It's not like I dreamt of being a journalist. It's just I didn't know what else to do. I have a big mouth. I'll try this.

You would have been great in sales. You would have been great in finance. You would have done very well.

Not finance. I can't deal with numbers.

Well, you're saying you did well at PPE. You're saying the guys that were—

That's why the economics bit I enjoyed. I did enjoy the math part of economics.

But at that time, you have no aspirations for politics?

No, it came later. I did. There was a period where I was very aspirational. I thought about running.

To run?

Yeah, to run as a member of parliament, be a politician. And then I realized it's not for me. When you cover it as a journalist, you're like, this world—

What do you mean it's not for you?

To run for office?

You? Do you ever watch Mamdani? You're like, dude, I could do that better.

Mamdani's—

I know I could do it better than Mamdani.

No, because I'll tell you why. Mamdani has an electric smile. I know Zoran well. I've met him a few times. He actually spoke at our anniversary party recently, and I had to speak after him. And I'm kind of arrogant. I think of myself as a good speaker. I got nervous that day. I have to speak after Zoran Mamdani. What the hell? What am I doing here speaking after Zoran Mamdani?

Did you feel the energy that he had?

He was Muhammad Ali. I'm looking straight there at Ali right there. He is the Muhammad Ali of politics right now. Just the energy in the room, people going crazy, his every move, hanging off his every word. He's got that. If he was American-born, he would be one of the top runners and riders for 2028 easily.

Super capable.

But here's the difference between me and Zohramani. There are many differences. The big one is he has this charming, electric smile. He is a, you know, he's the guy who kisses babies at events. He wins people over. I have what's called RAMF. I have resting angry Muslim face. So when I'm talking to people, when I'm listening, I look mad, right? People have told me this over the years. Producers have told me in my ear, you look angry, smile. Um, not in a misogynistic way, like you said to women, you should smile. But people tell me, smile. Yeah. So for me, running for office, I look angry all the time. You can't win like that. You need the smiling. You're brown, you need to be smiling.

Kelly or Mickey or people, family that are taking pictures, uh, Patrick, can you smile please? I, I'm smiling. You're not smiling. So it's, it's not— maybe it's a Middle Eastern thing. I don't know.

I think for brown and Black people, sorry to come back to racism again, I do think there's that extra pressure to show you're not an angry Black man, angry brown man. Obama was always seen as beloved because he was like, oh, you could imagine your daughter marrying him when he comes in the room. There was always that kind of sensibility around Barack Obama.

So you think that's the part with Mamdani, he's got a little bit of that Obama-esque thing going for him too? For sure.

I mean, look, he won over your guy.

Yeah? You talking about Cuomo or you talking about Sleeper?

I'm talking about Donald Trump.

Oh, Trump.

He won him over. He went to the White House. You saw him in the White House.

Tell me you don't love the fact that you're saying my guy, that my guy said, just tell him how you feel. Tell me you don't respect that.

That was an amazing moment.

Tell me you don't respect that.

I respect Mamdani for pulling it off.

But do you respect that Trump's like, just tell him you don't like it? I don't respect it.

I don't understand it.

Stop. You can't say that.

I swear to God, I don't respect it.

Dude, you know you respect the fact that—

I studied Donald Trump, unfortunately, through no choice of my own, for 12 years. I moved here months before he came down that golden escalator.

You respected that man.

I do not respect Donald Trump. But I watched that clip, and I genuinely— I'm someone who you could ask me about Trump, I could talk about Trump all day long. I know everything about Trump. That moment still is. He he looks at Mamdani the way I've never seen him look at anyone. I've never seen him look at Melania the way he looks at Zoran Mamdani, right? In love, just in awe. He goes on Sid Rosenberg's radio show. You say that? Sid, he's a jihadist, Mr. President. He hates you. Nah, he's a good guy. He's at the State of the Union.

Doesn't get you to say.

I don't understand why. But can you tell me why?

Yeah, I think he respects talent. But honestly, like game recognizes game. No, it's look. You're here. I like your talent, and I watch and I see what you do. Listen, we may not agree on you know 50 percent of it.

Most other people.

But no, he is. He respects talent, and he's got it.

↳ evidence for the P2 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-116

Fawning over people? Trump doesn't fawn over people.

To bring the guy over.

Kim.

He's done it with a few different people.

Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un, Zoran Mamdani. Those are my three.

What does that say about your Mamdani? You got to be careful with that.

That's why I don't understand.

Just put him in a bad place.

That's why I don't understand.

Be careful what you're doing.

That's why I don't understand.

I genuinely. Mayor Sun compares Mamdani to Putin and Kim Jong Un. Don't do that. Why?

Out of context. This is why no one likes writing media.

Just say you like the fact that they got along with him.

I do like the fact they got along.

I do as well.

Because Zohran Mamdani went, in his second time he went to New York, he's so smart, he knows how Trump is very easily won over. He takes a front page of a newspaper, right? He takes a fake newspaper front page. Why have people not thought of this before? With Trump saving New York, gives it to Trump, and then he goes, can you free this Palestinian student who ICE just picked up? By that afternoon, Trump has freed that student. That is a mayor who knows how to get results and win over Trump without giving up his own self-respect, without fawning over him like, I think Wes Moore was in one clip where they used it against him, where he was very, very friendly.

Will you give any credit for the fact that by the afternoon, the most powerful man in the world gave him what he asked for?

No.

You won't give—

I'll tell you why. Can I tell you why?

When is your birthday? Let me— where's the July 10th, '79? You are this stubborn?

Wow, you've done your homework. I'll tell you why I don't respect it, because I'm glad Zohran Mondani did it, but what does it say about our leader, the President of the United States, the Commander-in-Chief, the self-proclaimed leader of the free world, that it's so easy to play this guy? World leaders have been doing it for years. This is the problem with him. It's so easy to manipulate him. He's so easy to be won over. And I'm glad when my guy's doing it for a good cause, but people do it for bad causes too. I'm sure we're gonna talk about Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu did it to get him into a war with Iran.

Absolutely.

That's my problem. You know, when Trump first went to Saudi Arabia after he got elected in 2017, there was a story about how when he drove from the airport to the embassy or hotel, wherever he was staying, the Saudis— this is in 2017, remember, his first trip as president was to Saudi Arabia— the Saudis put up on billboards his tweets. Can you imagine that? How smart that is? That Trump is driving along and he's seeing his own quotes. Like, these people know how to play him. They know how to suck up to him. Kim Jong-un—

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His good quotes or his bad quotes? No, good.

They're praising him, right?

All right.

Every foreign leader knows how you can suck up to Donald Trump. You, you praise him, and now, and now in the second term, you give him money. You can now bribe the president of the United States.

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So do you think there's an element, uh, um, you've never been in sales before, but you're a businessman now.

Right? Yeah, I'm selling. I have to—

you're now sale.

Do that stuff.

Yeah. And that's subscribe to the tail. Showing to capitalists.

Subscribe to the tail.

So happy.

All the cameras. Theeteo.com.

By the way, respectfully, respectfully, you leave mainstream. You're at MSNBC. I think you're the number one guy for them with the eyeballs you guys are getting. I don't know.

Young people online for sure.

Yeah, for young people online, you're number one. So, and then, uh, I don't know what the story is, what happened there. We've read a lot of different stories. They were giving you another job. You chose to leave. You do independent. And then independently You have what, $3.5 million in recurring revenue? 12 months— no, 12 months later. 12 months later. That's amazing to be able to do that. And then today, being a business guy, so it's, it's great to have—

And I've never run anything in my life, so I was very worried.

So maybe that PPE degree you got in economics, that capitalist was inside of you and we brought it out. So that's great. Okay, welcome to the club of capitalists. It's great to have you with us.

I'm a socialist slash capitalist.

A multi-millionaire socialist, which is great.

Nothing wrong with that. Bernie's a millionaire.

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. But let's, let's go to, let's go to the part about, um, you brought up Trump and, uh, um, Bibi. So Axios brings out the story. At this point you've seen it. So Rob, if you want to go down so I can read the whole thing. You're effing crazy. Trump fumes at Netanyahu in call on Lebanon. Go a little bit lower, Rob, so I can read the whole thing. So President Trump lashed out at Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu over Israel escalation in Lebanon in an expletive-laden call on Monday. Two U.S. officials and a third source briefed on the call told Axios why it matters. Early on Monday, Iran threatened to abandon negotiations with the U.S. over Israel's actions in Lebanon. On the call, Trump called Netanyahu crazy and accused him of ingratitude, according to two of the sources. He also put the brakes on Israel's plan to strike Beirut. Behind the scenes, one U.S. official told Bibi that following through on his threat to bomb Lebanese capital would further isolate Israel from around the world. Two of the sources said. Trump claimed he'd helped keep Netanyahu out of jail. He said, if it wasn't for me, you'd be in jail right there. You're effing crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving your ass. Everybody hates you. Everybody hates Israel because of this. Do you think this call happened?

The call definitely happened, but both sides are spinning it in their own ways, and they're spinning it with the classic people. So just background on this, this is an Axios piece. The author of this piece is Barak Ravid, who is an award-winning journalist, won coverage co-authored by Mark Caputo, former colleague of mine at NBC News. But Barack Ravid is famous, or should I say now infamous in media circles, for being the guy who the White House always goes to to leak stuff about conversations with Israel.

Is this the guy that leaked it that Bibi got up— that Biden got upset?

Yes, same. This is the same guy? So he did both. He's bipartisan.

I got it.

Whether you're Joe Biden—

He's a fair guy.

Well, it's not about being fair. It's the point is that whoever's in the White House, they know that this is the guy who does the stories about split between Israel and America. So we've had about a dozen, 2 dozen of these stories over the last 3 years. Is this the guy you trust? Unfortunately, no. Now, it's not that I— it's not I don't trust him. I'm not saying he's making stuff up, but I am saying he's clearly become a useful vessel for information, uh, from the White House that they want to get out. They know if you're Joe Biden or you're Donald Trump, you know that if you want to get out that you're pissed at Netanyahu, Barak Ravid's the guy you go to. Now, on the other side, you have Amit Sigal, who is one of Israel's most famous journalists, very close to Benjamin Netanyahu. Channel 12, I think, is his network. This guy is now reporting today, the day we're talking, that actually the Israeli side is saying, no, no, Trump never swore at Netanyahu, never mentioned jail or prison, and they disagreed about how to handle Hezbollah in Lebanon. So the question then becomes, for those of us who were not in the room, who do you believe? Hmm. Serial liar Donald Trump or serial liar Benjamin Netanyahu? Journalists who act as vessels for leaders on both sides? It's very hard. This is why people have a real issue with mainstream media right now. Because what do you do in a situation like this where both sides are spinning furiously? And I can believe either version. I can believe that Trump told him, you're fucking crazy. Wouldn't put that past Donald Trump. I can also believe that they lied to make Trump sound stronger than he is, and now he's telling the truth. I don't know.

Okay, so how do they typically— how do they typically get the credibility? Because anybody can say this was said. So can you go back to the article when it says 2 sources were there? What, what, what is the— you're in this world. Is there a system or a standard to be able to— because this is a big deal.

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Yeah, yeah, it's a big deal. I mean, look, all the traditional rules of political journalism went out the window when Donald Trump came along, right? So, you know, my colleague Swin Subsang reports on the White House for Zateo. He has very good contacts. And, you know, he tells me some of the crazy stories he gets from behind the scenes in terms of people trying to screw each other over, right? In the Trump administration, there's a very unique dynamic. And, you know, he's referred to it as a Reservoir Dogs dynamic. It's been referred to where everyone's got a gun to each other's head at the same time, right?

Mm-hmm.

So they're all trying to screw each other over. So that's another issue is, are 2 of the sources people who are allied with each other? Are they from different wings of the White House? You know, Pat, with this Iran war, There are different elements in this administration. Some people want the war done, finished. Some people want it to keep going. So there's different pressures on Trump.

This is not 100%, uh, uh, 80% story.

This is—

no.

So there's different people leaking for different agendas to try and end a war or escalate a war.

Give me, give me how this makes Trump look good. How does it make him look, look bad? Who's winning with the story? Who's not?

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So Trump, you, you know, you know the MAGA base better than me. Many of them your viewers, many people in the MAGA base, not, not as many as people suggest, My good friend Cenk Uygur, I know you've had on the show, he thinks there's a big split in MAGA. I'm less of that view. I look at the polls, 80% of MAGA still loves Trump, 70% love this war. But there is a growing minority who don't like what's going on with the foreign wars, with the betrayal of anti-war promises. And a lot of them see Donald, uh, Donald Trump as being, you know, uh, what's— I can't come up with a better phrase than Netanyahu's bitch. And this would help Donald Trump say, look, I'm telling Benjamin Netanyahu, fuck you, you're fucking crazy, I saved you from prison. I'm the dominant partner in this relationship. And by the way, this is not just a Trump issue. Every American president who's dealt with Netanyahu has come out getting screwed over. Joe Biden got completely screwed over. He gave his entire presidency to save Netanyahu. Look at him today, destroyed. Bill Clinton in the '90s came out of a conversation with Netanyahu. You know what he said to his team? He said, who's the fucking superpower here? He was so pissed that he got talked down to by Benjamin Netanyahu. So American presidents have been dealing with Bibi for many years, and they've always tried to assert their dominance. And many of them have failed to do so. So I think for Donald Trump, it's good if people believe it. The problem is those of us who know the Axios reporting on this, we're very, very skeptical. So let me ask you this.

If you're Trump's advisor, which you're not, but let's just say if you were Trump's advisor and Trump hears you and he says, screw this guy, that call did happen, that's exactly what I told him. What does he need to do publicly for even a guy like you to say, shit, this happened?

+4 C-3.1 · Direct answer to a hard question · Mehdi Hasan

That's a great question because Donald Trump's word means nothing to me. I've been documenting his lies for many years. No one's told more lies than Donald Trump in the public sphere. So actions matter more than words. Same issue with Biden. His people would leak, Biden's very upset with Netanyahu. Okay, but what the fuck are you doing about it? Right? Many of us frustrated with the genocide would say. Same question now. What are you gonna do about it? Donald Trump has given Netanyahu everything he wanted, right? Even if this conversation is true, he's saying, I saved you from prison, in the sense that he demanded the Israeli president—

Did he? Don't you think he did though?

In many ways he did, because every time this war continues, Netanyahu avoids trial, right? Every time there's escalation in the war, he doesn't have to go back to court.

That's right.

And Trump has publicly called on Herzog, the president, to pardon him. Which he hasn't done yet, but I'm sure he's feeling the pressure from Trump publicly calling him out. So he has helped Netanyahu. But worse than that, you look at what's happening in Gaza. He's given Netanyahu everything he wanted. And this really bothers me because in 2024, I spent a lot of time pointing out to people on my side— leftists, Muslims, Arab Americans, people in Dearborn, Michigan— who welcomed Trump. And I said to them, you're going to get screwed over by this guy. No, no, no, no. He's more anti-war than Kamala and Joe. This is what I was told by Arab Americans who voted for Trump.

Yeah.

He will be the anti-war president. Stephen Miller said he won't send our boys to die.

guy.

Trump said— remember what he said? He goes, Liz Cheney will go to war with Kamala and kill Muslims. I won't. They all believed that shit. Then he bombed, what is it, 6 countries last year, 7 countries last year. Now he's in a war with Iran. In Gaza, he had this ceasefire at the beginning that people were very happy about, but since then he's allowed Netanyahu to do whatever he wants. And earlier this week, Netanyahu went on camera and he said, we now control 60% of Gaza and I'm going to take 70% of Gaza. Even Biden, Harris, Blinken, none of them said that would be possible. Trump has basically given Netanyahu carte blanche to do whatever he wants in the Gaza Strip. So what your answer to your question is, what does he have to do to prove he's holding—

A guy like you, it's impossible to win a guy like you.

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I will give credit, I'll say it now.

If what?

If he manages to get Netanyahu out of Lebanon and out of Gaza, which he won't, but that's what I would want to see because that's what's happened on his watch. On his watch, Netanyahu's taken more territory in both those places. Prove to me that you actually care about Middle East peace. Prove to me that you have control over Netanyahu and American weapons and get him to pull out. Because right now, Greater Israel is happening in front of our eyes. Netanyahu is doing the project that far-right Israelis have always wanted. He's taking Lebanon, southern Lebanon.

↳ P3 raised again here · first raised at U-182

↳ P6 raised again here · first raised at U-237

He's saying Egypt.

He's taking Gaza.

All this stuff.

Who knows what's coming next?

That's what you're thinking?

Well, if you embolden the guy, what is the lesson of the last 3 years? There's impunity. You can do whatever the fuck you want and America will never stop you.

Okay, do me a favor. Differentiate between what Bibi's vision is and what Israel's vision is.

What do you mean by that?

Okay, so for instance, you could have a, you know, there's a difference between what America's vision is.

Yes.

Be the greatest country in the world versus what AOC's vision would be if she became president versus Trump, right? So what do you think is Bibi's vision versus Israel's vision?

That's a great question, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. We do this thing in the US, especially on the liberal side, where we say, look, we're against the Netanyahu government. We're not against Israel or the Israeli people. The problem is the Israeli people have made it very clear over the last 3 years that they're totally behind all these wars. There's been no real anti-war movement in Israel. There's no real—

There's a little bit. It's not a big number. It's tiny.

It's tiny. You look at the polling, 80% of Israelis support—

20% is what I was going to say.

Every military operation blindly. You look at the polling, some of it's horrific. Like 80% of Israelis support removing Palestinians from Israel— sorry, from Gaza. And another small majority support ethnically cleansing them from Israel itself. Palestinian citizens of Israel. Israeli society—

+0.5 R-6.1 · Interruption · Patrick Bet-David

What percentage was this one?

↳ evidence for the P5 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-208

So I think it's 80% say they're fine with getting them out of Gaza, like forcibly.

↳ P5 raised again here · first raised at U-211

Right.

And there's another majority or big plurality of Israelis who are Israeli Jews who say even Palestinians in Israel should ultimately emigrate.

The West Bank and some of that?

↳ evidence for the P5 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-208

No, Israel proper within the Green Line.

Got it.

One-fifth of the population of Israel is Palestinian citizens of Israel. So there's— the polling is horrific. There was a poll done last year by Penn State, I think it was, where almost half of Israelis said that when we capture a town in Gaza, we should treat it like the Bible and Jericho. We should kill all the inhabitants, all the men. Like this kind of crazy— so, okay, all these polls, you take them with a pinch of salt, I get it. But anyone you speak to in Israel who's a serious commentator on Israeli politics will tell you that over the last 5, 10 years, Israeli society has moved to the right, to the far right, in a way that American society has not. Donald Trump is polling in the 30s right now. Even at his peak, he got 49.8% of the vote in the last election. He's never had a majority. In Israel, the right-wing parties, the far-right parties, are dominant right now.

↳ P5 raised again here · first raised at U-211

Yeah.

Maybe in the '90s, early '90s, there was a peace camp, there was Oslo, all this stuff. That's gone now. You can argue about why it's gone.

How is that? How is that possible? How is it that in Israel the guy is being that aggressive and his support is getting higher?

I don't think his personal support is going— we'll see what happens in these elections because, you know, you said 80%. The war, the war, right? This is what I'm saying. This is why I'm saying don't focus on Netanyahu. It's a very good cop-out. Even Bernie Sanders, who I'm a big fan of, he often says Netanyahu, Netanyahu, Netanyahu. A lot of Palestinians say Bernie, it's not Netanyahu, it's Israel. It's the Israeli political establishment. So if you swap out— I'll give you one example. If you swap out Netanyahu tomorrow with Naftali Bennett, who's an opposition leader, former prime minister, I interviewed him once. Naftali Bennett is also on the right, also likes war, has threatened Turkey, has threatened Lebanon. You've got another opposition leader, Avigdor Lieberman, former defense minister. You know what he said this week?

↳ P4 raised again here · first raised at U-207

Hmm.

He said flatten the suburbs of Beirut. We should be going in and not— don't listen to Trump. So the opposition in Israel are equally hawkish, right-wing. So this idea that it's all about Netanyahu, it's a myth. I'm sorry to say.

↳ P4 raised again here · first raised at U-207

Okay, so you're saying the two are the same is what you're saying on on issues of war and peace?

↳ evidence for the P4 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-208

Yes. I'm sure in some domestic politics, tax rates. I'm sure the smaller stuff is maybe domestically within Israel.

I'm sure they are.

When it comes down to the war, when it comes down to the region, Israel's role in the region.

Tell me what the vision is. If you if you think what do you think their vision is? What do you think Israel's vision is?

↳ evidence for the P4 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-208

There's there's a best case scenario and there's a worst case scenario.

Okay.

The best case scenario is that they have this idea of. we must be in a state of permanent war footing, right? I think there's a phrase for it, I forget the name, combat between the conflicts.

Mm-hmm.

There's some military doctrine that says even when we're not at war, we carry on doing preemptive strikes, we carry on doing cyber warfare, we carry on doing assassinations, so that Israel remains the regional hegemon. We keep our superiority, our military edge, we let everyone know in the region who's boss, even when we're not in a formal state of war. That's the best-case scenario, that this is just a security doctrine that says we will bomb and invade whoever we like, just to remain top dog in the region. That's best-case scenario. Worst-case scenario is it's ideological, that these are fanatical messianic people who believe that all of the territory is theirs, given to them by the Bible. I interviewed Naftali Bennett in 2017, nearly a decade ago, for Al Jazeera. He was education minister at the time. I never forget this interview. I said to him, we were talking about peace treaties and 2-state solution, and he said, the Bible says it's ours. I'd never heard someone say that bluntly to my face. I can't imagine Ilhan Omar going on TV and saying, the Quran says this, right? This guy's openly saying, The Bible says the land is ours. Where do you go with that? There's no debate after that, right? That's just a kind of religious ethnic nationalist messianic vision. So Benjamin Netanyahu, even though he's not a religious man, has signed off on a Greater Israel. He was asked about whether he believes in it. He said absolutely. The opposition leader, Yair Lapid, who's a kind of centrist, supposedly a liberal, he was asked after the Mike Huckabee Tucker Carlson interview. He said, do you agree with Mike Huckabee that all of the territories from the Bible, it's all yours? He said, yeah, our borders are biblical. This is what the opposition leader said. Forget the right-wingers Smotrich and Ben-Gvir.

↳ P4 raised again here · first raised at U-207

What do you think is the likelihood their vision becomes a reality?

Right now, more likely than not, because the United States of America has allowed Israel to get away with it.

But how long? I mean, long term, the—

Yeah, long term, no. Long term, it's perpetual war for perpetual peace.

And by the way, deep down inside, do you really think Trump wants this war to continue?

No. Trump doesn't like long wars. He likes short wars. That's why he's been humiliated by Iran, because he thought this would be over in a few days.

By the way, nobody thought Iran was going to be able to— like, not nobody. A lot of people on his camp, when they sat there and talked about it. Uh, uh, it is a very fair argument to say that— no, no, let me make my point on what I'm saying. It is a very fair argument to say that unlike Venezuela, yeah, which we went and we got Maduro and we're out, um, most likely Cuba is going to be the same way as Venezuela, probably even easier when they go through and get it.

Sure.

Iran showed up strength to the world.

Yeah.

And you got to give them credit no matter what, no matter what anybody says, conservative or on the left.

↳ P8 raised again here · first raised at U-244

+1.5 C-1.2 · Partial concession · Mehdi Hasan

You can give them credit militarily, um, obviously not politically, But Trump, I don't think we can defend him with nobody knew this, but he did this line recently, nobody knew they were going to hit the Gulf states. We all knew they were going to hit the Gulf states. They've been saying this for years.

That Iran was going to hit the Gulf states.

Iran was going to hit the Gulf states. That's been their doctrine for years.

Do you think that unified the Gulf states even more?

No, I think, I think we've wrecked our long-term relationship with the Gulf states.

Tell me why.

I think in private all of these Gulf states will— in public they'll say what they've got to say, but in private they know the US security umbrella does not extend to them anymore. They know that even if they give Donald Trump a $400 million plane, even if they put half a billion dollars in his crypto business, Israel will always take precedence over them.

↳ P7 raised again here · first raised at U-251

Do you think, do you think the Gulf states prefer Iran to be led by IRGC? Or, you know, the story we saw recently with Pezeshkian, who's a moderate, stepping down because he's like, everything's being run by— who do you think the Gulf states would rather have?

I think the Gulf states are not a monolith festival, Patrick, because the UAE is very different to Qatar and Kuwait, right?

But they're neighbors.

They're neighbors, but they have different foreign policy. I understand. The UAE is an outlier. The UAE is very hawkish, very pro-Israel, very pro-America, very anti-Iran, which is kind of crazy because, you know, the US and Israel move on with their lives. The UAE is exposed to Iran for the rest of their lives.

Isn't UAE succeeding the most out of most of the Gulf states?

Are they?

Financially.

Are they? So many businesses have cleared out. Tourism has fallen. I mean, huge industry based on tourism.

↳ P7 raised again here · first raised at U-251

For the time. For the time being, yes.

↳ evidence for the P7 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-258

You think people are going to go back? I think my thing is—

I think so.

↳ evidence for the P7 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-258

I think that their image has been permanently destroyed. I don't think you could put it back in the bottle. They had this image, especially to kind of white Westerners, as this business, tourist, even residential utopia. You go there, there's no crime, you chill out, everything's cheaper, etc., etc. I think that's gone now. Once Iran has done this, I think they've destroyed that image. Now, if you're Amazon or you're whatever it is, Chase Bank, you're going to go back into Dubai, Abu Dhabi, knowing that Iran can then do this again at any time they want? As long as Iran is still run by the same government, I don't think these Gulf states get that. That image back. And I think the Qataris understand that, even the Saudis understand that. They want a region— I think privately, and I may be wrong, and the few people in the Gulf I speak to say this to me, they recognize that Israel is the real problem in the region. They may not say so publicly, some of them have signed up to the Abraham Accords, like Bahrain, etc., UAE, but I think they understand that Israel is the destabilizing force in the region. It's Israel that bombed 6 countries in the Middle East last year, it wasn't Iran that did that. It's Israel that went to war now and brought the United States into this conflict and led to Iran bombing Kuwait, and Qatar and Saudi Arabia and the UAE. And I think that is the situation we're in. I think you're going to see these Gulf states, if they're smart, making overtures to the Chinese and to the Russians in future years. They have to kind of diversify who they rely on.

↳ P7 raised again here · first raised at U-251

You know, you know, maybe, maybe it's me being Assyrian, maybe it's me being Armenian, maybe the fact that I lived in Iran could be the reason for this. But nobody, you know, sells Israel as this incredibly powerful organization and brains Than those who hate Israel. All they talk about is how powerful Israel is. I don't think there's anybody that's the Don King promoting how smart, intellectual, brilliant Israel is than those who cannot stand Israel.

I'm not one of those.

But if— okay, so if—

I mean, let me just go through the list. I'm not somebody who said Iran would roll over. I said Iran would make Iraq look like a walk in the park.

Yeah, but I'm talking about right now.

I warned that Iran and America would not be able to destroy Iran. in the way they thought they could destroy Iran.

It was insane.

It was hubris to think they could do that. I've been saying that for 15 years. I've been saying it since Iraq, 2003, when I was a 23-year-old marching against that war. When Bush was thinking about Iran, I was saying—

Are you afraid of Israel?

Am I afraid of Israel?

Are you afraid of Israel?

What do you mean?

Are you afraid of Israel's aspirations?

Oh yeah. But aspirations are different, right? Can they pull it off? I agreed with you that just because they have this messianic vision doesn't mean they're going to win.

Yeah. I mean, to me it's like, okay, like—

They didn't win in Gaza.

But bro—

Patrick, I said in 2023, I said this whole plan, when people were like, you're And others are saying Israel has a right to self-defense. Destroy Hamas. You can't. There is no military solution to your problem.

Yeah. So, you know, you know, you know what it is for me? Oh, don't talk to Mehdi because Mehdi is going to do this. No, I want to talk to Mehdi. No, I'm telling you, be careful. No, I want to talk to Mehdi. Oh, don't talk to Bibi because I'm— no, I want to talk to him. I wish we had an hour and a half to talk. No, don't talk to Nick. No, don't talk to this guy. I want to talk to him. I don't sit there and see that, my God, everything— they're so powerful. They're going to control America. They do this, they do that. I mean, you're kind of giving them too much credit.

↳ evidence for the P6 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-266

I mean, you're mixing different things together though. One thing is militarily, can they win on battlefields? No, not always. Hezbollah defeated them in 2000 famously. That was the first time they were defeated by an Arab force on a battlefield when they withdrew from southern Lebanon. They're back now. We were told Hezbollah was done. Do you remember a couple years ago? Oh, the pages and the assassination of Nasrallah, they're done. It was a paper tiger. They just killed 30 Israeli soldiers in the last few weeks, right? They've injured hundreds more. Who knows what the real numbers are? So clearly they're not done for. Hamas is still around, and the Iranians still have, what, 70% of their missile stock according to US intelligence? So the idea that these were all paper tigers was bullshit. That's a different argument. I'm not a military expert. I'm not going to sit here and adjudicate, you know, who has the strength in the field. Politically though, in this country, does Israel still have power? Sure. They still have politicians who support them. They still have lobby groups that advocate on their behalf.

↳ P8 raised again here · first raised at U-244

So does China. So does Qatar.

No, not on the level of Israel. Come on.

Oh, are you— okay, let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. If you had $5 billion. Yeah. To win over influence in people in America politically.

Yeah.

And inject your way of thinking.

Yeah.

Would you put that money to buy over congressmen and senators, or would you put that money into winning over kids? Where would you put your money?

↳ P9 raised again here · first raised at U-288

Both.

No, no, either way. Okay, then do diversify. Diversify. Seriously, use it as a mutual fund. You got $5 billion. How much you put in one? How much you put in the other one? Honestly.

↳ P9 raised again here · first raised at U-288

I don't know.

But I want you to think about it.

50/50. I think they're both important. You think you talk about— when you say young people, you mean like TikTok?

↳ evidence for the P9 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-293

Universities. I'm talking about universities, TikTok, social, you know, give money to universities, give money to places to get the kids influenced. Where would you put the money?

↳ P9 raised again here · first raised at U-288

But let me, let me, let me, let me take your example, take it a step further. Okay, let's say I put it all in students. I win over young people. That's already happened. Have you seen the polling? The young people hate Israel.

I, I know, but, but, but does it translate into policy?

No, because the Congress still controls the purse strings. So I'll give you one example. 8% of Democrats support Israel's war in Gaza. 8%, according to a poll last year. In Congress, it's the other way around. It's like 80% of Democrats support Israel, only 8 or 10% are voting against weapons or genocide. I'm ballpark figures here. So what's the disconnect? The disconnect is we have a Congress that doesn't represent the public on either side of the divide. I don't think the Republican Party fully represents its base, but more so Democratic Party certainly doesn't represent its base on Israel. The leadership— look at these primaries. We're sitting on a day where there's going to be a bunch of primaries. So my big point here is, yes, it's great that young people have been won over. It's great that everyone under the age of 50 in the United States of America, whether Republican or Democrat, does not want more weapons going to Israel. That's the latest polling. Under the age of 50, everyone.

↳ P10 raised again here · first raised at U-347

That makes sense to me.

Right? But Congress does. So the disconnect— this is why we have such a crisis of democracy. This is why Israel matters so much in our political system. It's not just a foreign policy issue. It's an issue of our democracy where we have members of Congress and a president who does not follow American will, does not follow the will of the voters. And so to answer your question, Yeah, you do need to spend money lobbying Congress because ultimately they're the ones voting on weapons, they're the ones voting on aid, they're the ones voting to censor our speech, saying anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. All of that stuff is coming out of Congress. And people say, oh, Qatar and this— I just gave you an example. The Qataris gave him a $400 million plane. The, uh, the Emiratis gave him half a billion dollars for his crypto fund. The Saudis have sponsored multiple multi-million dollar golf tournaments at his properties, hotels. Did it come in useful? When it came down to it, he picked Israel. He picked Miriam Adelson. He picked Benjamin Netanyahu. He picked AIPAC. He picked Marco Rubio.

I don't know about that.

He picked all these people. What do you mean? We've seen it with our eyes.

I don't know about that. I don't— listen, let me ask you this. Do you think— and by the way, you didn't answer my question, so I want to stay on the money part and then I'm going to go to the next part.

I did answer. I said I could spend it all on the kids. It doesn't matter. No, but so ultimately Congress is still more important.

↳ evidence for the P9 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-293

So what— so you would put all the money in Congress?

No, both. I said split.

You would do 50/50? 50/50.

Went over the people and then went over the people who represent them.

So, so where does Qatar put their money? They put $6.5 billion in universities. Where does China put their money? $5.5 billion in universities. What type of influence do you think they got long term? You think long term? Like you think China thinks short term? You think Qatar thinks short term? You think they're trying to buy influence long term when they get in front of the kids?

You think? Do you have evidence? It's a serious question.

The dollar?

No, I mean, no, no, I'm talking about do you have evidence that first of all, what Chinese investment has gone into universities?

You want to pull it up, Rob? I mean, this, you know, you know, I know that Qataris are sponsoring.

I've been to Georgetown Qatar. They spend a lot of money on US universities. But it's great. I'm asking about what's China's sponsored university.

Oh, China's given donations to—

The Chinese government sponsors American universities?

+2 C-4.1 · Acknowledged uncertainty · Mehdi Hasan

I did not know this.

I'm happy to show my ignorance here.

By the way, I don't know where the money is coming from, but I'll show you here. China has invested an estimated $5.6— I was short by a billion. Okay, $6.4 billion in American universities over the recent decade, making it one of the largest foreign—

↳ P11 raised again here · first raised at U-312

So why are they doing that? No, no, no, hold on.

You didn't read the third Which is what these funds are.

You think research partnerships with the Chinese is making kids on campus pro-China?

↳ evidence for the P11 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-321

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not what I'm saying. Okay, Mehdi, you're very smart. So you, you went to Oxford, you got the PPE degree, because it's like not the PPP loan, you got the legit PPE degree, right? Do you not think if these schools are getting these types of money, which phone call you think they're picking up? Oh, you think—

↳ P11 raised again here · first raised at U-312

We know, we know, Patrick, because we just saw what happened the last 3 years. Did Columbia go pro-Israel or pro-Qatar?

↳ evidence for the P11 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-321

But what did Columbia do?

They went pro-Israel. They silenced all the pro-Palestinian voices. But what did they do?

But what did they do?

They rolled over for Donald Trump and they rolled over for the Israel lobby.

What was the event that happened that got them to get there?

↳ evidence for the P12 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-330

I don't know which event.

Why did they do that?

I don't know. I don't know where you're going.

No, no, you follow the stories. You tell me, who was it? It was 3 universities, right? Columbia was one of them.

And there's a bunch of universities that cracked down on pro-Palestine dissenters.

Why did they do that?

Multiple reasons. Pressure from politicians who are pro-Israel. Pressure from donors who are pro-Israel. Israel, pressure from activist groups, uh, this whole ridiculous debate where we conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. I remember when I launched—

↳ P12 raised again here · first raised at U-329

+3 C-2.1 · Common ground · Patrick Bet-David

I'm not with that, just so you know. Like in Florida, when they're saying you can't debate and criticize Israel, I'm not part of that camp.

Not just that, DeSantis is one of the many governors and Republicans who have said that if you're an American business that engages in BDS, you can't get contracts with the state. That's insane that American business can't do what it wants to do.

But by the way, what I'm trying to tell you is I think the reasonable people are not with that. Short term, some of these things may come and go. Long term, they're not. I had Randy, uh, what's his last name? Randy Fein. I had him on and I asked him the question, uh, about where he's at. I think you may have even tweeted something about it when we, when we talked about— I asked him a couple questions, pointed whether he was pro-America, America first, or Israel first. If you're in America, hey, I have a problem with you not being America first, but I want to go back to this. If they give $6 billion— You think they're dumb that they're just giving $6 billion to universities? You don't think they want things in return? Everyone.

I think you made that point earlier. There are many lobbies trying to get their way. I'm not disputing that there are many lobbies. In fact, I'm the one who says let's not treat the Israel lobby as a unique lobby. People are like, oh my God, AIPAC. I always say AIPAC, NRA, Big Pharma, all of these people. I want to get money out of politics.

I'm on the left.

I'm a Bernie, Elizabeth Warren—

I want to get money out of politics.

Let's get rid of Citizens United. Citizens United, worst Supreme Court decision. Okay, so but let me come back to your direct point about influence. I'm not disputing that they're spending money, they're lobbying. Everyone's doing it. I'm saying Israel's winning, and the evidence is what's happened.

↳ evidence for the P10 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-301

See, I'm saying Israel's losing.

↳ P10 raised again here · first raised at U-347

I'm I've I've I've not only do I have a kid in college, I have every multiple Muslim friends, leftist friends with kids in colleges.

Kids are now Jewish.

I have kids who've been arrested.

Yeah.

I have kids who've been doxxed. I know kids who have been suspended. I know kids who've been expelled because of their criticism of Israel. I watched a video of Ramesa Osturk, a young Turkish student. at Tufts be picked up by 8 ICE agents and detained because she wrote an op-ed in her student paper saying we should divest from Israel. And Marco Rubio had her detained for a year, right? So don't tell me that Qatar is winning this argument. Qatar is not winning the argument on campus. So it's just a complete— the 3 last 3 years is a complete denial.

I get your argument, but I, I would, I would dispute it in the following way. Everybody is trying to win influence. Everybody.

Agreed.

They're spending money. So no matter what it is, everybody's But the question is, whose money is working and whose not? The part where I go that's not working is, do you think Israel's popularity in America has increased or decreased in the last 5 years?

↳ P10 raised again here · first raised at U-347

↳ evidence for the P10 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-348

↳ evidence for the P12 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-330

No, because that's a different argument. That's because people saw a genocide livestream to their phones, right? And you can't buy your way out of it.

It's more than— that's one of it.

That's one of the big issues.

It's one of the bigger issues, but it's more than that. So whatever they did, like even when Charlie Kirk, you know, the letters came out when he was having a conversation with Bibi, And I don't know if it was the 7 things he wrote, the 6 things. Do you remember that when he wrote a letter? I don't know if you remember that or not.

I wasn't a big Charlie Kirk reader. You'll be shocked to hear.

Yeah, well, you would have liked him. It was a special—

No, he didn't like me. He wanted me deported. He called for me to be deported from this country because he's such a free speech champion he was.

What was his reason for it?

Because I said something about COVID that he didn't like.

What did you say about COVID Something about the whole school—

my position on, you know, lockdowns, vaccines, whatever it was. He didn't like it, but instead of debating me on it, he said, Who's this guy? He should be deported from the country.

Can you tell me specific what it was, Rob? Rob, you can pull it up. There's a lot of— now if you said something crazy shit on Twitter and he responds back to you—

hold on, hold on, even if I said something crazy, First Amendment doesn't cover crazy.

First Amendment, can he— he can also say that.

But you think he should threaten people with deportation?

I don't know, you said some crazy shit. What did you say?

No, I didn't say anything crazy. I'm just saying, even let's say I did say something crazy—

no, but even if I didn't say anything crazy, but let's just say he said that. That's his freedom to be crazy.

Of course it's his freedom. Yeah, I'm not gonna like the guy. You're like, I would agree with that. That's how we got on to Kirk. Why would I agree with the guy who hated—

no, no, you don't. You don't have—

he hated Islam and he wanted me deported.

That's a different story.

That's a difference.

But by the way, Rob is fast. Rob is fast.

We need you, Rob.

Charlie, this is speed. Charlie was a phenomenal, phenomenal guy. But let me, let me, let me go back to it.

We'll have to agree to this.

Uh, yeah, that's totally fine. So, but where was I going with this? We were talking about the influence And then we went to universities. What topic were we on until I brought up Charlie? Rob, do you know where I was going?

You were saying talking to Netanyahu and the stuff.

Oh yeah, when he talked to Netanyahu with the 7 points and he said to him, he said, you're losing the kids. Whatever you're doing, the propaganda, you're losing the kids. So it's not working. So if you say the influence of AIPAC or whatever they're spending their money to win over Congress and all these other guys, guess what happened? I think they gave money to John Cornyn. AIPAC did. He lost. He's been there for 40-plus years. Paxton won. Yeah. So what happened with that guy winning? He was a guy that was not even supposed to win. He had issues. Letters came out with his wife, all this other stuff. It wasn't a pretty thing. So I don't know if their influence— don't get me wrong, when you talk about Miriam, you know, she's, she's put up some real money there.

I mean, she's been very open about it.

She's, she's put up some real money.

And can I say, I don't think we're disagreeing that much. I think I'm— we're not actually disagreeing.

I agree with you.

I'm the first to say I'm very happy to see young people switching on this. I never thought there would a day would come in my lifetime where polls showed that the American public supports Palestine more than Israel, which we're now seeing from Pew and Gallup. That's an amazing change in public opinion for people like me. But what I'm trying to say to you is all of that is valueless, worthless. Why the AIPAC calculation might make sense to AIPAC is well, who cares what public opinions say? If we can, if we it is short term, but if we can control, but they don't think long term.

↳ P10 raised again here · first raised at U-347

↳ evidence for the P10 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-301

No, no, no, no.

Maybe the Chinese do. The Israelis think short term. No, the Israelis think—

I'm not talking Israeli.

Okay.

I'm talking about those who wanted to make sure, like, whatever their belief is, whatever your belief is, folks that are not pro-Israel, right?

And hey, yeah, they've not won hearts and minds. We agree on that.

Oh no, no. I think I go to schools and I talk to kids. First thing I ask is, who do you watch? Used to be Charlie Kirk. Who is it now? Da da da.

Really?

What's your position with Israel? Oh boom, they back I mean, it's like zero to anger towards Israel. So guess what that means? Whatever the propaganda was, correct or not, it worked for those that are anti-Israel.

↳ evidence for the P10 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-348

But guess what?

They've made a lot of profit.

Guess what's scary? When the pro-Israel side hear you say that, when they see the numbers of people watching Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson or Nick Fuentes, God help us, when they hear that, they don't go, shit, we need to work harder to win hearts and minds. What they say is, we need to crack down on democracy and free speech because that's the only way we stay in power. That is why Peter Beinart, my good friend who used to be a hardcore Zionist, now a liberal—

I don't think that works anymore.

Peter makes the point that you're going to see a lot of Zionist groups in this country allying with the right. Traditionally, American Jewish groups have been pro-Democrat, liberal.

Yeah, yeah.

But now they're allying with Trump and MAGA because they see a way of suppressing speech and joining with authoritarian forces because they can't win the argument fair and square.

I think that's a mistake.

It is a mistake.

But, but, but—

But that's what they're doing.

Jonathan, I understand that. But what I'm saying to you is It's very important to win over the kids. Very important to win over kids. And when I see China, Qatar putting that kind of money in schools, you know, their long-term thinking is let's win these kids over and then let's see what happens. So I don't think Israel is winning when it comes down to winning over.

↳ P11 raised again here · first raised at U-312

Did you see the Jerusalem Post conference in New York this week?

No.

They hosted a conference that ties in with the Israel Day crazy parade. They had Ronald, um, Lord The Estée Lauder guy, the billionaire, giving a speech. His son-in-law is the Federal Reserve guy, Kevin Warshy. I remember his name.

Is he Jewish? He's Jewish.

Ronald Lauder is a very leading figure in the American Jewish community, big supporter of Israel. He gave a speech at Jerusalem Post conference, and in that speech, there you go, he said that Mossad and Shin Bet, the Israeli intelligence, domestic and foreign intelligence, should be working hard to get American kids to support Israel. Influence operations. Openly called for it in a speech. There's a clip doing that. It's insane, right? So when you're talking about this, what I'm saying to you, it's not that they don't know what's happening, but their solutions are so batshit crazy. Go back to that story. And so authoritarian.

Israel is losing the information war.

So they get it. They agree with you and me. Yeah, but their solutions are scary as shit. They're authoritarian.

It's not going to work today though.

I hope it doesn't work.

You know why it's not going to work? You know why it's not going to work today? Why is it not going to work? Are you with MSNBC today?

No.

Okay, where are you at?

I'm independent.

What can you talk about?

Anything I want.

Anything you want. As long as you don't say something crazy to get a strike on YouTube.

Yeah, but that's the thing, right? Look at TikTok. When Mitt Romney had Antony Blinken on stage, do you remember that famous conversation a couple of years back? And he said— everyone's like, oh, they're going after TikTok because of China, because of China, because of China. And Mitt Romney just sits with Blinken and says, every time I go on TikTok, you see 6 times, 7 times as many pro-Palestinian posts as pro-Israel posts. We got to do something about that. Blinken's annoyed. I'm like, Mitt, you're not supposed to say that out loud. You're supposed to say that in a small, filled room. He said it on stage. Right? He made it clear that the TikTok— taking over TikTok by the Ellisons and co. was always about Israel more than it was about China. And that does worry me because you could say, oh well, I wonder today if, God forbid, the genocide restarted today at the level it did in October 2023 after the horrific massacre on October 7th, what would we see on our social media screens today? I think you'd see much less than you saw in October, November, December of 2023.

So if, if you— okay, fair. On, on what could happen there. But to me, I think the independent content creators— Israel wasn't used to these guys 20 years ago, and this is a very different game. Yeah, very different game. So they were not accustomed to these guys coming on and not needing anybody and just sit in front of the computer, play video games, and talk. And nowadays you have streamers. You, you— streamers are influencing kids. Gamers are influencing kids. How long this is going to last, I don't know.

Look what the UK government just Mike had been banned. Cenk and Hasan. So again, that's the short-term crackdown. We can't win the argument.

What's the reasoning, by the way? What did they say?

Anti-Israel.

But what was the specific thing?

They didn't give a specific as far as I'm aware.

Well, I mean, UK, you know your country.

I didn't see the details. I know that they didn't say— look, banned for criticizing Israel, they say. I don't know what the UK government has said, but, um, but they're saying this.

You don't know if that's the position.

I don't know. I don't know the exact, but, but my point being My point being, this is exactly what we just talked about, which is again, we can't debate with Hasan Piker the streamer, so we just prevent him from coming to speak.

You can do it here though. This is specifically UK.

But my point is, but they're doing— no, no, but they do it in reverse, right? So with the UK, you pressure the UK government.

I don't know about Cenk, but you want to pull up some of the stuff Hasan has said? You want to give him feedback on what he said?

Like, I give him feedback. I know Hasan very well.

Have you heard about some of this stuff? He knows that he said some capitalist blood on the— you know, he said some outrageous He said he knows he's the guy that's a lot of stuff that's going to happen again or so.

No, what he said. Okay, come hold on. Can you just pull up the crazy shit he said? No, no, no, hold on, hold on.

I'm not going to defend him,

but I want to know what's—

I'm not going to defend him.

Go ahead.

Well, I'm going to defend him from falsehoods. I've spoken to Hasan very bluntly and said you've given your opponent— Yes, in what is the context of that?

Tell me the context.

He was talking about American foreign policy and, you know, the quote-unquote famous line about, you know, chickens coming home to roost. It was a very provocative statement. He's apologized for that, by the way. Just to be clear. But even Robert Kagan, you know Robert Kagan is, the big neocon, he came out recently and said, you know what, 9/11 was a result of our bad foreign policy. He just said it in a more diplomatic Atlantic Magazine-friendly way.

So you're supporting him saying that?

No, he shouldn't have said it like that because America deserved 9/11 makes it sound like those people died was worth it. No, but did America bring 9/11 on itself? 100%. Our US foreign policy created Osama bin Laden, created al-Qaeda, created all of these wars in the Middle East, created that jihad in Afghanistan. 110%. That was a blowback from US foreign policy. Every serious scholar who's looked at that admits that now. We're coming up to 25th anniversary of 9/11. Even Robert Kagan is saying—

When do you think— Rob, can you pull up how many arrests happen in UK versus other countries on social media? I don't know if you've seen this.

Yeah, I've seen it. It's a little bit out of context.

But you know, when you talk about Piker, Hasan Piker, what he said, to me, you can say anything you want to say. The only thing I have a problem with is when it comes down to a threat to someone's life.

Yes.

Give your opinion. Hey, I disagree with this guy's a this, this guy's a that. But when it gets down to that, and then he's never threatened anyone's life. When he said capitalist blood, let them die. Can you pull up that clip?

I don't know that clip.

I need to see the full clip. Hasan said right here, I'm 47, you're 46. I think we're a year apart. You're 79, right? Okay, so we're the same age. So when you sit down with a young guy like that, and we've made some major mistakes in our career.

I just told you, I talk to Hasan all the time. Don't give your opponent sticks with which to beat. The guy is a nonviolent guy. He doesn't support war or killing. He just says provocative things.

You have it, Rob, with audio or no? My understanding is that the property owners who have properties there choose just not to rent it at all. Yeah, kill them.

Kill those motherfuckers and murder those motherfuckers in the street. Let the streets, let the streets soak in their fucking red capitalist bloods, dude. Yeah, that's a dumb thing to say. Good looking guy. Talented guy.

Good speaker. Why would you say something like that?

I'm going to text Hasan after this and say, you screwed me over on the Patrick Bet-David thing because I'm not going to defend that. I don't I don't know what the context for that is. But look, even you said— let's park Hasan Piker. Cenk Uygur said a lot of things that are very provocative too, not like that, but about Israel. Yeah, the point is, to come back to my wider point, which is there's still a way for them to shut down the conversations, to censor speech critical of Israel.

Cenk is pretty loud, Cenk is everywhere.

But now he can't speak in the UK, is my point.

Well, that's— but that's the argument for UK's dumb policy.

It's not just the UK. You don't think the US— are you— have you—

Not at the— bro, pull up, pull up.

Stop.

Let's compare. The US is much worse.

Look at this here. Type the number of arrests for hateful messages.

Marco Rubio locked up students in this country for their speech, for speaking. For a woman, a young woman in a hijab from Turkey wrote an article in her student paper. She said we should divest from Israel.

I don't know the whole story.

Pull it up, whatever you want. The judge threw it out. He said it was chilling free speech in this country. He had her released from prison. Multiple cases. I'm going to give you one.

Is she a US citizen?

No, she's a Turkish student.

She was a Turkish student here.

Legal student studying at Tufts.

Legal student here and criticized American policy.

No, she asked, she said, she didn't even criticize the American government. She said, my university, Tufts, hey Tufts, can we divest? We should divest from Israel. Marco Rubio lost her.

This is one right here.

This is one right here.

F1, F1.

The judge threw the case out. He said it was a complete assault on free speech. In fact, a Reagan judge, Patrick, you don't have to trust lefties. Let me quote you a Reagan judge, a guy called William Young, appointed by Ronald Reagan. When he looked at the cases of all these students, he said Donald Trump has launched a, quote, this is his words, full-throated assault on the First Amendment, right? Marco Rubio is deporting people like Mehmed Khalil, who you may not be a fan of, not because they did any terrorist activity or called for the killing of anyone, but because under the 19— some random 1952 immigration law, the Secretary of State has the power to deport anyone he says is undermining U.S. foreign policy through their speech.

↳ P14 raised again here · first raised at U-473

Can he?

Well, it's never been tested at Supreme Court. There's one judge who adjudicated on this law. You know what her name was? Guess what her name was? Judge Marion Barry Trump. Trump's sister is the only judge to ever look at the 1952 law on its merits, and she said it was unconstitutional. But it then got rejected by another court on procedural grounds. It's never been tested. But you and I, if I just describe it to you, you and I think it's insane, right? The Secretary of State should not have dictatorial powers.

↳ P14 raised again here · first raised at U-473

I don't know the laws behind it.

Let's assume I'm right.

Sure.

Assume I'm right. you would disagree with the idea that the Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, Marco Rubio, whoever it is, has the power unilaterally to throw out people who have broken no laws because he didn't like what they said. Surely you as a free speech guy would be opposed to that.

+4 R-2.1 · Whataboutism · Patrick Bet-David · low confidence: excluded from score

I'm a— and by the way, the way you're making it seem like is you're quick to forget what happened under Biden.

You're quick to forget what freedom of speech was like under Biden.

I just said Blinken's name. How can you say I'm quick to forget Biden?

You know how many—

+0.5 R-6.1 · Interruption · Mehdi Hasan

No, hold on. How can you say I'm quick to forget Biden?

I just said Blinken and Rubio. you how many people on YouTube got strikes, videos taken down, what things we couldn't talk about. We couldn't criticize anything about vaccine, COVID. That's not true. You know how many strikes I got?

↳ P15 raised again here · first raised at U-492

You're exaggerating. You couldn't criticize anything about vaccines? I was there in the pandemic. People were criticizing vaccines.

You were criticizing vaccines. And videos were disappearing like this. I can do easy research for you, send a report to you. Videos were disappearing like that. People that were talking, creating content, massive YouTubers were disappearing.

↳ P15 raised again here · first raised at U-492

Hold on, hold on. You've just made my point for me. A minute ago you said America is much better than the UK. Now you're saying America is dictatorial too.

↳ P13 raised again here · first raised at U-509

So we're No, no, I'm not saying America is better than UK when it comes down to arrest. We don't arrest.

What it was, Robes Ostek. I just showed you.

You want me to?

I can go through the list.

Should I go through the list?

Mahmoud Khalil.

Are you really gonna?

I know these people.

UK versus US.

I'm gonna say right now, US is much worse than the UK.

Stop it.

And actually, by the way, the UK.

Stop it.

Hold on, hold on. The UK is really bad right now.

When's the last time somebody knocked on your door and said, "Matty, be quiet. You're talking too much." No, the UK is.

↳ evidence for the P13 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-500

By the way, I don't defend the UK. The Labour government in the UK. passed a law that criminalized Palestine Action. You heard of this group, Palestine Action?

No.

It's a group that went and threw paint on some— broke into a military base and threw paint, and they— I think they assaulted a police officer, fought with them, I can't remember what the charges were. But they were classified as a terrorist group alongside ISIS and some far-right white supremacist groups. Insane. There's no intelligence for this. They rammed it through Parliament, got it voted on, and then they started rounding up people. I don't know if you've seen the videos. Every weekend for the last few months in the UK, people were protesting against the genocide. Little old ladies, a guy in a wheelchair, vicars, priests grabbed by 2 police officers, arrested. You're a terrorist because they said Palestine action. You can't say Palestine action. So I'm not going to defend the British government. They're deeply repressive right now. But funnily enough, Elon Musk never talks about cases like that. He always brings up the cases about Tommy Robinson. All of that stuff.

He doesn't— I'm sure you're a big fan of Tommy.

Oh yeah, and he's a big fan of mine. But the biggest— but the biggest threat right now, there's no more repressive law than this law they To basically, if you go out and say Palestine action, you say the two words. If I go to the UK tomorrow and say Palestine action, I will be arrested.

So what do you think about what happened to Henry Nowak?

Who's Henry Nowak?

Henry. You don't know who Henry Nowak is?

I will if you remind me.

If you can, you pull it up, Rob. Henry Nowak. This is the guy in Southampton, England, last year, December 3rd, 2025. 18-year-old kid is going home, murdered by Vikram Digwa. The video just came out. The Vikram guy stabs Henry Nowak. That's the problem, media is not even talking about this. Stabs Henry Nowak, I don't know how many times, cut and stabbed Nowak a total of 5 times with a knife. When police arrived, Digua accused Nowak of assault and officers handcuffed Nowak. He died shortly after being handcuffed. The video came out, I think, yesterday, Rob, if you want to pull it up, and it showed the guy can't breathe. He's having a hard time breathing. He's telling the cops, I can't breathe.

breathe.

I can't breathe. I can't breathe. All of a sudden he dies, and they said, no, you said some racist comments. Rob, I sent the video to you in the notes if you go to it.

So, okay, so, so what's the point of that?

But I'm gonna tell you what's the point.

No, no, it's horrible.

No, but because the cops sided with Digua, they said Digua told them that he made racist comments. And with the guy saying, I was stabbed by these guys, he's running away. They caught him. The guy had an 8-inch knife that people that seek, uh, what do you call it, the, the, uh, uh, ceremonial knife that they have. You know which one I'm talking about?

Yes. Which now he gets stabbed with. They want to ban—

can you, uh—

I did see British politicians saying they want to ban it, and I didn't realize the context. This is the context.

And this is the context. And they said they wanted to ban it. Keir Starmer came out today and said, no, we're not going to ban it. But you know what you can't have in England? You know what you can't have in England? You can't even have pepper spray. Pepper spray has not been legal since '68, but they can have that knife. How that makes any sense? So for me, you and I can cherry-pick stories on both sides to create rage on why this or that, but the stats are the stats. So when you're saying that story about America and UK, you hear a story like this, where is the rage with this? Where's the algorithm?

↳ P16 raised again here · first raised at U-524

That's not even a free speech story. We were talking about free speech. You brought up stats about social media arrests, and I'm saying to you right now, in the US, you can be arrested by this government, detained for a year without charge because you said something the government doesn't like about Israel. By the way, about a foreign country. It's not even about the American government. Yeah, you're not even criticizing the American government. You're criticizing a foreign government.

↳ P13 raised again here · first raised at U-509

I'm gonna go look it up and I'll give you my response to you personally myself.

↳ evidence for the P14 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-488

Have them on your show. Have Mohsen Madawi on your show. Have, uh, have Badr Khan Suri, who's in court right now, on your show. Georgetown student. These guys were picked up off the streets by men, masked men, unmarked cars.

↳ P14 raised again here · first raised at U-473

These people love America.

Yes, they love America.

I don't know, are they planning on staying here or going back home?

Mahmoud Khalil is married here, has a kitty. He had a kid while he was in prison. Donald Trump, the family values party, the Republican Party, didn't let this guy be with his wife when she gave birth, didn't let him hold his baby.

What do you say about Henry Nowak, what I just showed you?

↳ evidence for the P14 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-488

I think that's horrific.

That's—

you, you can't— I think that's horrific.

But, but this—

I don't know the details, but obviously the police got it wrong.

This is the part that kind of— so you represented the media on the left, okay? So Rob, can you go back to that story that New York Times, if you search the 2 different words, uh, of, uh, George Floyd versus what happened with Nowak, you once— you just had it up right now a minute ago.

Uh, uh, come on, you're gonna do this?

No, the media is fine.

The media is—

but wait a minute, wait, this is New York Times. Go to the first one.

I'm not a fan of the news.

You type in Henry Nowak, how many names? Results: 19. Go to the next one, Rob. George Floyd: 6,397. There is no incentive to tell this story because it doesn't go with the narrative.

↳ P16 raised again here · first raised at U-524

So I disagree with you. I grew up in the UK. Right-wing media has been telling these stories all my life. All I've— all my life, all I've seen is Black people and Muslim people on the front pages. Have you looked at the front page of the Daily Mail, the Daily Express? What do you mean the UK is getting destroyed?

↳ evidence for the P16 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-553

You think you're UK is doing good?

Yeah, I mean, no, but not for the reasons you think.

Why do you think you— so why do you think UK is not doing good?

I think economically it's doing very badly. It had very bad leadership for the last 15 years. I was there. I— the Conservative government that came in 2010, yeah, did an austerity program after the financial crisis.

↳ P17 raised again here · first raised at U-556

Cameron is—

David Cameron and George Osborne did an austerity program that basically gutted the British state, gutted our competitiveness, didn't cut the deficit, actually ruined our, uh, fiscal credibility, downgraded our credit rating. destroyed our growth over the course of a decade, undermined our health service.

↳ evidence for the P17 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-559

Do you put anything tied to immigration to that?

↳ P18 raised again here · first raised at U-565

No.

None?

Immigration's been a boost for the British economy. In fact, cutting immigration's bad. Look at Brexit. Brexit's been a disaster for the British economy. Do you know how many people in Britain want to rejoin the EU? A majority. Pull that up. The majority of Britons want to go back into the EU. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is, Patrick?

Do you think? Do you think?

Why do you think Britons want to go back into the EU?

I, I, I, I, you know—

You just said Britain's being destroyed.

No, but, but have you looked at the crime numbers, what's going on?

↳ P17 raised again here · first raised at U-556

Crime is very low.

Have you looked at what's going on?

Crime is very low, Patrick. So, so let me ask you, do you know what the crime rate in London is?

Did you see the tweet that came out?

You know, I know you're not a fan of Sadiq Khan. You're not a fan of my good friend Sadiq Khan, are you?

What EU did— you saw the, uh, tweet that came out, what EU was saying they're doing, that they want to find a way to get rid of illegal immigrants?

Okay, you're jumping around, Patrick. Britain is not in the EU. We're talking about Britain. You just said Britain's being destroyed, which is nonsense, and then you said crime rate. Have you looked at the London crime rates? Last year, London had its lowest per capita murder rate since records began, had the lowest volume of homicides for 30 years under Sadiq Khan, third-term mayor who people in America— Elon Musk, Donald Trump— get very worked up about. I don't know if you guys get worked up about him. Been a very successful mayor, and crime has come down by record numbers, violent crime and murder.

↳ P17 raised again here · first raised at U-556

↳ evidence for the P17 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-559

When you're looking at EU, do you know which country in the EU has the lowest rate?

You're talking about the UK, but stay with UK.

Stay with UK.

UK's not in the EU anymore.

+5 R-2.4 · False equivalence · Patrick Bet-David

To me, I'll put them somewhat together in the same area.

They left 10 years ago.

By the way, Okay, so you're saying immigration coming from all these countries has been a successful project for the EU?

Uh, what's your definition of success?

Many different ways.

Economically, the EU desperately needs migrants. Have you seen the age rate? Pull up the demographic. Okay, so it's a dying continent with a very low birth rate, as Elon Musk likes to point out. So, so when you think they got no one there to work, to pay taxes, to look after the elderly, to run their health services, etc.

↳ P18 raised again here · first raised at U-565

Maybe, maybe the one argument I'll go to, to see what you'll say about this. Do you think the West, when it comes on to West, Muslims can coexist with the West.

I'm curious.

I'm curious.

We went from Britain's being destroyed to London crime to EU to Muslims.

↳ evidence for the P18 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-588

I'm curious.

Okay, we got to—

tell me, tell me where you are with this. Do you think that I'm Muslim? Do you think they can coexist?

Do you think I can coexist?

I think you can coexist.

Why me?

Educated. You're, you're a worker. You're now a capitalist. You're contributing. You're creating jobs. I would say you're a net positive.

Do you not think most Muslims do that?

↳ P19 raised again here · first raised at U-588

I don't think the— depending on where they're coming from, they don't. Because if their countries did a good job, why would they leave it?

↳ P19 raised again here · first raised at U-588

War that we caused.

War that who caused?

That we caused.

So they're leaving because of us.

Well, you know, the big controversy in the UK over the boats, the small boats coming across the Channel. Do you know what the top 3 nationalities are in those boats?

Tell me.

Iran, number 1.

Okay.

Afghanistan, number 2. Iraq, number 3. Now Iran is a current war. Let's park Iran. But are you telling me we're not responsible for the mess in Afghanistan and Iraq? Come on.

When you look at this, let me show you this, Rob. Can you pull this up? When it comes down to, uh, uh, let me see which one I got here.

I love Rob bringing up these. No, no, I, I love he brings this up.

I know you like numbers.

No, I love it. I love being proved right as well. It's good for my ego.

No, no, no, no. Per capita, per capita, when you look at the countries, Rob, I think you got it. Gulf states How they perform per capita versus some of the other Muslim nations. Look at this one here.

Because they got oil and gas.

You think it's only oil and gas that's causing them? You don't think—

Did you know what these countries were like in the 1970s?

Iran has plenty of oil. How come they're not in here? Maybe Iraq has got oil.

Can I answer your question?

But this isn't— this has been going on for a minute. This is not a one-year thing.

Can I answer your question?

Sure.

Why do you think Iran's not doing well economically? Should I go through the list?

↳ P20 raised again here · first raised at U-614

You're going to say it's sanctions.

You're going to say it's America.

You're going to say it's America's fault.

Not just America's fault.

So how come—

But partly. Hold on, hold on. How much? Okay, you left Iran during the Iran-Iraq War, right?

Is that right? I left Iran after Khomeini died. Six weeks after Khomeini died.

Okay, so Iran-Iraq was done by then.

So Iran-Iraq was 15th, 89.

So Iran-Iraq was done. Iran-Iraq was 1980 to 1988. Yes. Six hundred billion dollars of damage done to Iranian infrastructure, the economy, the cost of that war. That was a war that Saddam Saddam Hussein.

↳ P20 raised again here · first raised at U-614

Oh, you put it on Saddam?

Who whose whose fault do you think it is? Who invaded who? So by the way, hold on, hold on, hold on.

You don't at all put that on IRGC.

No, I put it on the country.

You don't put it on Islamic Revolutionary Guard.

I put it on the country that invades the other country. That's how the world works. I blame Russia for the Ukraine war.

They invaded Ukraine. Why do they have a hard time getting along with other people?

Why did Saddam Hussein— are you pro-Saddam?

No, no, no, no, no. Why does Iran have a hard time getting along with other people?

That was what I said. I said there was an Iran-Iraq War. You said, is America to blame? I said, yes, we backed Saddam Hussein. Did we not back Saddam Hussein? Did Donald Rumsfeld not fly and hug— you can pick up a— Rob can bring up a video with Donald Rumsfeld hugging Saddam Hussein in 1983 in Baghdad. Were we not supporting the Iraqi invasion of Iran that cost Iran a million lives, $600 billion in infrastructure damage? You're saying that didn't play any role in Iran's economic future?

↳ evidence for the P20 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-633

Why don't they—

+0.5 R-6.1 · Interruption · Mehdi Hasan

You're not answering my question.

No, but you don't understand what I'm saying.

No, no, no, no, no.

No, no, but Mehdi, let me ask you.

You want me to acknowledge that?

No, but look, let's give credit to, for instance, when Mamdani goes to the White House, you and I both gave credit to both of them for being diplomatic, right? Do you think Iranian leadership with the IRGC is diplomatic?

No, they've been horrific in their leadership. I think they've— again, they've given themselves— they've given their opponents a stick with which to beat them. I was a big critic of Ahmadinejad back in the day. So he said dumb things.

+4.5 C-1.2 · Partial concession: Iranian regime/Khomeini were bad · Mehdi Hasan

So do you think Khomeini was good for Iran?

Do I think Khomeini was good?

Do you think Khomeini was good for Iran?

No, in hindsight, of course not. If you look at the record—

↳ P21 raised again here · first raised at U-652

so then we're on the call. What I'm trying to do is—

I'm trying— I'm not— I've said this before. I went on Piers Morgan Show. Just to be clear, for people who don't know, I'm Shia, right? I'm a Shia Muslim.

I know you're Shia, which is the majority religion in Iran.

Sure, right? So I do. But there are 2 types of Shias. This is a very crude— I'm trying to explain to your audience religiously, theologically, politically. There's 2 types of Shias. There are those who believe in what's called Wilayat-e-Faqih, WF. They believe that Khomeini— this was a political theory, a religious— some say a religious theory pushed by Ayatollah Khomeini that said that the clerics, the ayatollahs, the mullahs, whatever you want to call them, they should rule. Power should be with That is the model that Iran has followed. There is another school of thought that comes out of Iraq, mainly out of a city called Najaf, and an ayatollah called Sistani, who is the leading Shia ayatollah in Iraq today. And they say, no, no, we are all for religion. We're all, you know, we want everyone to practice Islam, Shia Islam, but we're not going to rule. After the Americans toppled Saddam, Ayatollah Sistani did not do a Khomeini. He did not say, I'm going to become Supreme Leader of Iraq. He said, have elections, democracy, vote. I'm going to stay in my house, and I'm going to give you advice, religious advice, when you need it. I follow the Ayatollah Sistani view of the world, crudely put. I don't follow the Ayatollah Khomeini view of the world. So when you say to me, was he good for Iran as a governmental system? No, I don't support the governing system of Iran the way it is. But, but you're changing the subject. You're avoiding the— you are.

↳ P21 raised again here · first raised at U-652

↳ evidence for the P21 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-655

I'm not.

There was an 8-year war. We were talking about Iran's economy.

I lived there. Trust me, I lived there. I, I witnessed it. You should entertain the idea of living in a Muslim-majority country, see what it's like.

I understand.

I lived there.

You're jumping around.

I'm not.

Well, you were talking about the economy.

Iran. I'll let you finish your thought and then I'll go back to my question that I had. Go ahead, finish your thought.

So you want me to finish my thought? Well, it doesn't— it's a thought that requires a response from you, which is if there's an 8-year war that Iraq started and we supported that cost $600 billion to Iran, that took out a million members of their population and then was followed by crazy sanctions, are you telling me then that it's fair to compare that economy with Abu Dhabi? Are you seriously telling me that's a fair comparison?

↳ P20 raised again here · first raised at U-614

↳ evidence for the P20 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-633

Can you go back and go back to that chart again, Rob, for me? So you just defended Iraq, right? That we backed up Iraq.

Yes.

That went against Iran.

Yeah.

How come they're not on the top GDP per capita on this list?

Do you know what happened to Iraq after the Iran-Iraq War?

Oh, so now you have another reason. It's America's fault again.

+7.5 R-1.1 · Strawman: attributing 'everything is America's fault' to opponent · Patrick Bet-David

I mean, do you study history, Patrick? Do you know what happened in 1991?

Do you read—

We did a Gulf War. No, but the Gulf War— Saddam idiotically invaded Kuwait.

This is victimhood language for you to say. So on one end—

Wow.

No, on one end you're saying this, on the other end you say no, it's because of this.

You're comparing countries. You're showing me a graph. Comparing countries that have never been bombed, invaded, and occupied with countries that have been bombed, invaded, occupied, and then you say, "Why is the GDP per capita higher in one not the other?" Why have they? That's an insane comparison.

↳ P20 raised again here · first raised at U-614

Why have they made so much progress? Why? They're Muslim majority. Yeah. Okay. Why have they made so much progress? I mean, and by the way, at this point, just so you know, the argument is now not about Muslim.

I know it's not.

I know, but the argument is why are some winning, some are not?

And I explained war plays a big role in this.

Well, maybe a part of it.

I just pointed out to you the three biggest. Refugee groups on the boats going into England are Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan. Coincidence? No, those are war-torn countries.

I'm not disputing that. What I'm trying to tell you is, even with that, if you sit here and say every single time everything is America's fault, what, what responsibility do they take? Do they take any responsibility that they're not making the right decision for other people?

↳ P20 raised again here · first raised at U-614

↳ evidence for the P20 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-642

Just to be clear, people can rewind. I know Rob does screenshots, but people on watching on YouTube can rewind. Never did I say it's all America's fault. I've never said that. I'm very— have you read? You said you've read my stuff. You've seen my stuff.

I've seen your stuff.

I'm very critical of Muslim-majority countries. I am very critical of the Iranian government. I'm very critical of the Saudi government. I'm very critical of the Emirati government.

What feedback would you give? What do you think they can do?

I do a show for Al Jazeera, and I grilled the Qatari foreign minister on that show about the lack of democracy.

Dude, I've seen your stuff.

I'm critical of Arab governments, Muslim governments, Pakistan.

I'm critical of all these things. Do you think the Middle East is a safer place with IRGC in charge of running America or somebody like a Pesheshkian? More the moderates.

Of course I'm more of a moderate. I would like to see— and again, who undermined the moderates in Iran? Sorry, it's going to be the answer you don't like. The United States of America.

No, no, I disagree.

The United States of America.

No, I disagree. I don't think that's the case.

Israel.

Oh, well, no, no, I don't, I don't—

Proxy then.

No, but listen to me. You were not expecting my answer.

No, because I don't accept this fake split between US and Israel.

But this is not it. But let me tell you what I do, because what I, what I see going on right now is I see Israel— in a way, I actually like what's taking place. Let me explain to you why I like what's taking place. A part of what's going on right now is the world is able to see Bibi's motive versus Trump's motive. Like, you remember that one time when Trump and Bibi are on stage speaking and he's saying, yeah, we're thinking about taking over Gaza and we're going to build a hotel here And ACB goes like, wait, what? You never told me that. He kind of got— I don't know if you remember that session or not.

Okay, West Bank equivalent.

So a part of it for me, I like that this is happening because I prefer this to be in the public's eye. I prefer for Trump to show, hey, listen, if I want to go become a prime minister of Israel, I would do it. You're there just because of me. I like him saying that publicly. All right, I like that that is taking place. But to me, who, who, who wants IRGC to be gone? So who works?

So a couple of things. On, on, on the Trump point, I agree it's better these things happen in public, and there is a weird upside to Trump having such a big mouth and saying crazy shit all the time. There is a pro to that, I get that. But let's not forget, Patrick, you saw the New York Times big piece where we discovered from Jonathan Haberman— Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan— that Benjamin Netanyahu went to the Situation Room and made the case to Trump with Mossad joining via Zoom or wherever it was And he persuaded Trump that this will be a walk in the park, cakewalk, all of that shit. That happened in private.

What's your percentage that that happened?

That happened in private.

What's your percentage?

Oh, high, high percent.

Give me a number. 80%?

80%.

I'm 50/50 that that happened.

Okay, you think Trump did it on his own without—

No, no, no, I said I'm 50/50, meaning I believe there's a 50% chance because—

But you don't deny that behind the scenes the Israelis are putting pressure on the US?

Of course I know.

So then to come back to your—

But I don't think he's Bush. I don't think he's Obama. I don't think he's Biden. I don't think he's those guys.

I actually— In many ways he's worse.

No, no, no, I, I don't think he is.

He doesn't have any independent views.

The one thing I know with you, uh, uh, Mehdi, is the fact that no matter what he does, he's not going to get victory from you. We have to put those two—

Again, you can go back on YouTube, rewind an hour. I said if he restrains Netanyahu in Gaza and Lebanon.

You said if.

He won't. I know he won't.

No, I understand. But have you ever given him any credit for anything he's done? When we set out to create a shoe that blends comfort, function, and luxury, we had the choice to make it We had the choice to make it cheap. We chose neither. Instead, we chose Tuscan Italy. We chose true Italian craftsmanship, each pair touched by 50 skilled hands. We chose patience, spending 2 years perfecting every detail. And we chose the finest quality at every step. Introducing the Future Looks Bright collection. Not rushed, not disposable. Not ordinary, rather intentional, luxurious, timeless.

+4 C-3.1 · Direct answer: named Trump credit head-on · Mehdi Hasan

In the first term, I wrote a piece for The Intercept. I got a lot of shit for it because I said credit where credit's due. He's going to withdraw from Afghanistan. Remember, he laid out that timeline that Biden then got attacked for following. It was a Trump timeline. Biden pull out of Afghanistan.

↳ P26 raised again here · first raised at U-732

Biden the way he did it.

Trump would have done it better. Come on. It was always going to be a disaster.

No matter how you pull out of Afghanistan, there was many, many, many military personnel said there was better ways to leave.

I don't agree on that.

Many, many military personnel.

Can I come back to your wider point?

Tell me.

Oh my God, he's showing me I need to take a shower now. Bravo Donald Trump is the headline. Rob's too fast. All right, so let me come back to the wider point.

Forget Trump. I always knew. I introduced him properly at the beginning. Big MAGA supporter.

That's 2020, 6 years ago. We all grow, evolve, learn from our mistakes. So the broader point about America and Israel-Iran, to go back to your IRGC point, Forget Trump for a moment. Let's just take US foreign policy as a whole. When you say it's Israel, I don't accept that. I think this new thing on the right where you say, you know, Tucker Carlson, Joe Kent, all this line, which is like, America's good, it's bad, bad Israel making good, good America. I'm not saying you did, but I'm saying others. It's becoming a very broad consensus, which is America's really good. And then evil Israel comes along and makes good America do bad things. No, we need to take agency and responsibility. We are the superpower. And when Iran is— when Israel's murdering Iranian nuclear scientists or murdering Iranian diplomats who might do a deal with them, Yeah, we have to take ownership for that. They don't do that without an American green light. They didn't kill Khamenei without an American green light. They don't do shit without an American green light. So I don't buy this idea that Israel is some rogue force. Going back to the Barak Ravid point about there's all these splits between the president and the prime minister, 9 times out of 10, America and Israel are on the same page. 1 time out of 10, they're on a different page.

Yeah, so, so we had moderate presidents in Iran.

They got screwed over. Khatami, Rouhani, They got screwed over by Western governments that wouldn't do a nuclear deal.

Israel went out and killed the 50 guys. You know, we could have worked together, whatever. They kept— and Trump kept saying, everybody we're negotiating with, they're killing them. Who's they? Who's he saying?

And you think Israel can do that if Trump wanted them to stop?

Come on. No, no, no. What I'm saying to you is Israel, when they get their intel and they want to take somebody out— you remember the Pagers? They got very good intel. They don't have a problem going and doing what they're doing. I understand Israel's motive.

So do I.

I understand Israel's motive.

But I'm saying they get a green light from the US.

Yes, I, I don't think as much under him as others. I do think they're an ally for the Middle East. And I'm not like— you're, you're a business guy now, you're a capitalist. So one of the things you'll experience, because you're a capitalist, it's nothing wrong. You should be proud of it. You should be. Look at the smile on your face. You're making more money than ever before.

It's a good life. It's good.

Are you making more money or less money right now?

I'm making more money.

That's good. There's nothing wrong. We should be proud of it.

Did I say that? That's not my definition.

Here's where I'm going with this. In the last couple years since you've been private How many opportunities have you had to do deals with people?

Many.

Many. When you're on the call, do you know their motives?

No.

Their motives are typically beneficial to who?

Themselves.

Themselves. Is that, is that something that you and I would be surprised with? No. Why are you here today? Why do I have you on today? It's going to be a good show for us. Why are you on here today? You don't live down the street. You came. There's a motive.

Yes.

Both of us have a motive. So both of us are winning from this exchange that we have.

Okay.

In that sense, the way they negotiate, then it goes to who's the better negotiator, then it goes to who gave up more, then it goes to all the other stuff that you got to go through and you got to make adjustments.

Well, Trump is a horrible negotiator, and as Benjamin Netanyahu said— these are Benjamin Netanyahu's words— for 40 years I've dreamt of attacking Iran. He's the only president who would listen to me. Those are Netanyahu's words. I'm paraphrasing.

Years Trump—

every president said no.

'87, he would go and take over Karak Island. He said that in '85. You make it seem like this guy's not an independent thinker.

Well, he's not independent.

Trump said that in '85.

Hold on, he also said none of us knew they would hit the Strait of Hormuz. None of us knew they would hit the Gulf countries, you idiot. Everyone knew this.

You can't give him credit that he said this 40 years ago.

Yeah, I don't know how he got that one thing consistent.

I don't know how this one thing he did. I don't know how he— I don't know how he came back and won.

Patrick, you keep asking me to give him credit. Yeah, the Iran War, you praised him on day one of the Iran War. Would you accept today it's been an absolute disaster? No. Donald Trump is not a war leader.

↳ P26 raised again here · first raised at U-732

No.

He doesn't understand foreign policy. He doesn't understand what— he just said this week, I'm bored. You know what he said this week? I'm bored of all this. Mehdi, like a child.

Mehdi, let me tell you what it is. You know, I have a local— I have a local doctor I want you to go see. He specializes in TDS, and I think you would work very well with him. Over a 6-month period, he'll be able to get rid of your TDS.

I have a guy who's a psychologist, and he deals with cult members.

Yep.

And I think he'll do well with you guys who can't get out of the Trump cult.

See the difference?

I asked you— I gave you a opportunity in front of the audience to criticize Trump on Iran.

↳ P26 raised again here · first raised at U-732

You can't do it. I will. Can I tell you, please, the difference between you and I is I will sit there and I'll give credit and I'll criticize.

I am— I'll give you credit. What should I give him?

I am more supportive of him than you are.

What should I give?

Because the longer you're a capitalist, you're gonna like— you're gonna want somebody that's pro-capitalism.

The economy is horrific under him because my business is doing badly because of him. It's, it's because of the war. Who started the war? He did.

+3 C-1.2 · Partial concession: Trump started the war · Patrick Bet-David

I don't— I take, uh, ownership that he started.

So when you say give him credit, can I— can I finish?

You're gonna let me— allow me to finish my thought, please? Did you give him credit with Venezuela?

No, of course not.

Illegal action. So that's also no.

He broke international law, American law, the Constitution.

So that's a no for you as well.

He killed a grandmother.

Let me ask you a question.

And he brought this guy to a court case that he might lose.

If they take over Cuba, would that be a victory in your eyes? Are you gonna— so give it already criticism up front.

You think I'm supporting— you want me to come here to Florida and support imperialism? You support imperialism. So, so, so you support just invading other countries.

So, so you go back, you go criminal.

Well, how the hell do you think America got so big? What do you think they did?

It was an expansionist James Polk ideology of let's go out and buy all these other places.

Was there international law, the UN Charter, Geneva Conventions at the time?

But, but you're, you're sitting here complaining about something like this where you're living in a country. It's because of the byproduct of the visionaries previous to us that they made it what it is today. Why do you feel so safe here?

Bizarre argument.

Why do you feel so safe here?

Because we once got Alaska, we should go conquer Cuba.

No, that's not what I'm telling you.

Sounds like it.

If they're expanding, I don't mind an expansionist president.

You like imperialism. How are you different to the IRGC?

I don't mind an expansionist president.

How are you different to the IRGC? Everyone says—

Are you kidding me? Islamic Revolutionary Guard. Everything is above— God tells them what to do and bad, bad, bad, death upon America.

↳ evidence for the P20 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-642

They're accused of being expansionist, of trying to take over the Middle East. That's the big allegation that the Gulf states make against Iran. And yet you're sitting here saying, but we should take over the— we should take over the Western Hemisphere.

By the way, do you know what I would actually say?

I'm not imperialist.

Let me ask you a question. You got how many— how many subscribers do you have with your channel right now that are paying you?

On Substack?

On Substack.

I'm not going to say that number.

Let's say it's 100,000 people. There you go.

It's not, sadly.

Okay, but let's just say 50,000 to 100,000 people. You're doing well, you're making good money. Okay, um, have you taken any viewership from anybody else? What do you mean? Are people watching you that used to watch somebody else on YouTube? What an expansionist you are.

What a shameful expansionist capitalist bullshit.

Maybe this guy's expanding his YouTube channel, but God forbid anybody else does it.

I've waited an hour 20 minutes for you to say the dumbest thing. With respect, Patrick, that is not an analogy.

Every time you say the dumbest things is when you get cornered. What do you mean you're expanding?

That is the worst analogy. Did I go into the New York Hold on, let's be clear. You're expanding. Did I walk into the New York Times and abduct the editor-in-chief of the New York Times, put a bag over his head?

Do you have any employees? Do you have any employees?

Yes.

How many of them came volunteer? How many of them did you recruit and hire away from another company?

How many of them did I get with a gun and a special forces team? You're making a ridiculous analogy. You expand as a business. That's the same as illegally occupying other people's land.

↳ P23 raised again here · first raised at U-830

What, what, what la-la land are you living in? Like, what do you think happened to this world of law? What do you think happened to this?

You do realize the problem that the MAGA folks have when they say this is you lose any credibility to criticize anyone else. You can't criticize Iran, then you can't criticize—

and I don't.

You don't criticize Hamas?

No, I don't criticize. If you're able to expand—

So if Hamas goes into Israel, you're for that?

It's not about the— if I'm for that or not. If you're able to successfully do it, that's your vision. I know I have to defend against it. What do you think companies do? How do you think companies work? What do you think companies are supposed to do?

↳ P22 raised again here · first raised at U-816

↳ evidence for the P23 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-830

I think it's insane that you're comparing business expansion to us going around the world killing people.

↳ P23 raised again here · first raised at U-830

Manny, why do you think we have military?

To defend ourselves.

Against what? Threats. Against another country?

You want to be the threat.

I'm not saying that.

You think Cuba's trying to expand right now?

No, no.

You think Cuba's trying to expand? Where are they expanding to?

Miami? No, no.

You've been living in Miami too long.

By the way, maybe— I think you've been drinking too much Miami water. I should rarely go to Miami. Maybe that's their fault. Maybe that's their fault.

What's their fault?

Maybe their ideology, communism, created a poor country and their people want something better.

Maybe, but that doesn't give us the right to go and take over the country.

How do you think all this stuff happened in history?

Okay, lots of things happened in history that weren't right.

Yeah, but, but, but guess what?

This is 2026.

Dude, you understand you've taken market share from other people. Your viewers were somebody else's viewers that came to you.

So you support—

Who goes to you?

So you want a— just to be clear, you want some kind of law of the jungle where might is right, power—

What do you think the law is?

No, you're fine, you're fine. What do you think the law is? I noticed you don't answer any questions. No, what's the law? Very simple question. Yes or no?

Do you support the law of the jungle where might is right? Do you believe that?

You can't answer a question with a question. You have to answer the question. Do you support a might is right view where law of the jungle, whoever's powerful gets to do what they want? I, I'm trying to find—

no, no, I'll answer it for you. I'm trying to find out what other law of the land you think we live in. Help me understand.

Uh, we have domestic law, we have international law, we have criminal law.

What is the—

what, what, where you're living, what do you use? Do you use— you've been in charge for too long.

Do you use ChatGPT or do you use Claude? Claude, which do you use more?

Probably ChatGPT more.

ChatGPT more than Claude? Okay. Do you know when it first started who had the biggest market share?

↳ evidence for the P23 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-830

ChatGPT.

Oh, who do you think is killing it right now?

Claude.

Claude's picking it up. Why?

Because they invaded another country, kidnapped the president?

Because they produced a better product.

Did they?

And this is why—

did, did, did— what's the guy's name? Dario Amadei? What's his name? The guy runs Claude. Did he go into Sam Altman's house in the middle of the night, take Sam Altman and his wife, put bags on their heads, and fly them back to his compound. Yeah. And kill a grandmother in the process.

↳ P23 raised again here · first raised at U-830

The only difference is that, but war is necessary.

↳ evidence for the P23 verdict on Patrick Bet-David · ruling prints at U-830

That is the big difference, Patrick.

I can't believe you don't see it. No, no, no, I, I understand what you're saying in the argument of that, but the reality of it is—

Do you support a world where the might is right? Do you support a world— do you like living in a world— are you pro— do you support the idea of living in a world where powerful countries should be able to do what they want?

↳ P24 raised again here · first raised at U-869

+7.5 R-4.2 · Reversing the might-is-right question back onto the asker · Patrick Bet-David

Can I ask you a question? What country— You keep answering questions without answering questions. Why do you live in America? Why do you live in America?

Because I like the law. You know what I like about the US?

Because it's the most powerful.

+2 C-3.1 · Direct answer: why he lives in America · Mehdi Hasan

No.

Go live in Iran.

No.

Go live in Iraq.

I don't live here because it's the most powerful country.

Why do you live here?

Because many reasons.

Give me one.

It's a country that's governed by laws, principles, free speech.

↳ P25 raised again here · first raised at U-894

↳ evidence for the P25 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-901

Yes.

I love the First Amendment, right? The Constitution.

↳ evidence for the P25 verdict on Mehdi Hasan · ruling prints at U-901

Yeah.

I don't favor presidents and people who say we should just break the law because we can.

I didn't say break the law.

What do you mean? Taking over Cuba is breaking the law. UN Charter, that's the law of the land.

↳ P22 raised again here · first raised at U-816

If, if they come and they try to take over over. Which—

who's coming?

Whoever it is. Trump's already talking about it.